CAD UPGRADE-Put a stop to it.

[88]

Are architects/engineers /designers trapped by CAD industries ? Are all these expensive endless upgrade and training necessary in the name of efficency or creating steady cash flow for these CAD companies ? Should we users put a stop to this instead of buying all the "better and faster" gimmicks they try to sell us ?

[csintexas]

Then don't upgrade.

[WalkerARCHITECTS]

When the only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail. I was on the ground floor while working as an Engineering Aide (EIT) at Boeing. I was weened on a new type of computer called a VAX this one was a PDP-1170 Graphics computer running software by Bentley systems. I was thrilled to have my hands on it, this was the future in the raw and I was a pioneer, it was Computer Aided Design. I still did most of the graphics by hand and I remain skilled in the ancient art.

Over the years I have watched this CAD tool get better. When we started we had to enter three Cartesian coordinates to define a point and three more with a line command to draw a line. There was no magic in the box then and the reality is there is not any now. Time and technology applied will make the tool better, up to a point. All things have limits.

Today I am an individual who has used AutoCAD for more than twenty years. I can write programs in LSP which is much akin to speaking Latin as a foreign language. Surprisingly AutoCAD still accepts LSP and a host of other more sophisticated programing language option. Truth be told these tools are getting better, but much more slowly than they used to.

Upgrades no longer dramatically improve efficiencies. They are often simply rearangements of the menu, like a new menu from your favorite restaurant it can be vexatious to search for a favorite only to find it located on a new foldout page. It is nothing short of annoying to use the upgraded version and discover that you ca no longer drive the program efficiently, you can not do things automatically without thinking. Some idiot went and changed it. God forbid they ever change the controls mechanism on the automobile.

AutoCAD these days has that kind of change that is somehow change just to be changing, more a fashion statement than an improvement. Certainly not accelerating production. Not that I can see anyway. It is often impossible to ignore that side of the truth about CAD, where it is obvious that in every sense, the cows are being milked to a greater extent than they are being fed.

Software has that capacity to change flavors without becoming more nutritious to the business of production of the technical submissions. But just as certain as the programs of the past with their massive global user base, begin to change in appearance more than improved functionality, new programs like REVIT are emergent. REVIT is a Building Information Modeling Program, and it is a great deal like an affordable version of CATIA, powerful tool empowering our vision in 3D. I cannot afford it.

Now REVIT is the magic in the box that I want in my hands, I need it to take possession of my craft and mastery over my business domain. Oh yeah! if only I had REVIT! Of course it is just too expensive for the firm to buy right now and there is simply not enough work to make it pay off. Now that AutoCAD has a teammate, there something new in the tool box. It is cool to have the new tools. Something to be excited about & so it is with information technology, always flowing ever true our never ending desire for new.

CAD like the hammer it is only designed to do one thing well, so making CAD better is subject to limitations of practicality. I have a fifty year old hammer, it is a fantastic tool. I still use pencils, the T square and triangles from time to time. Each tool is used to it's highest and best use although I must admit the slide-rule has been long sense retired. I admit that I draw freehand sketches everyday and I use marker pens and paper because every problem is not a nail. We just want the tools to fit the problems we need to solve.

Productivity is the core capacity of profit in all service industries. Autodesk should serve that outcome with greater sensitivity and clarity. We do not want a "new" dashboard the old one was fine, no reworked standard model with a little body work, what we want is better gas millage, more horsepower, simply more bang for the buck. Most of all it needs to be less expensive, and more sustainable by design; does Autodesk know that the cost is a formidable barrier for even the larger firms?

[88]

Naturally the interns in my office are the biggest fans of Revit and BIM. They went to all the meetings and their schools tell them this is the future of architecture.
But these early adopters typically can't even put together a realistic 2D wall detail. I noticed these tech-savy interns can just get easily lost in all the fancy commands. A year ago we bought 2 revit seats and started to do a few simple jobs in Revit 2009, after a few trainings I was persuaded to upgraded to 2010 by the kids in my office. Now they say 2011 is supposed to be even better.
May be sometimes in the perfect future all these BIM will become the norm and help us make some money. For now, realistically it is still faster for my office to do any of our projects in Autocad 12. The guys who use autocad 12 typically knows how to put the details together too. The BIM is in his head not on some software.

[O-Archy]

Great topic!
"renewal of subscription will keep you at the forefront of the latest fad"
-The BIM is in his head not on some software- sooo true, if I had muh druthers, I would like 'virtual reality' gloves and goggles, so I could develop a design much like BIM. It is a 'Catch 22' if one does not know how to put it together, then how can one design and draw the assembly?
I believe the profession has gotten too far from the actual site... hands-on construction skills go a long way when one is at the desktop detailing a design... The software is just a tool - 'hammer' as Walker says.
Cheers!

[svenglezz-ASMEIL]

I've noticed the new upgrades and versions end up being SLOWER (to load drawings). Not to mention the drunkish' zoom now, try zooming in and out for 12 yours on Autocad 2010 so if I'm not willing to upgrade on the Autocad why would I even consider the Revit.

Stopped a long time ago on upgrades, my drafting table works great , esp. with all the tricks, layers, lisp's and software tools out there FOR FREE. Over the years we have perfected the cad'ing to be so efficient, easy to learn, instant co-ordination between disciplines (shall i go on?)

Why would "we" change from our perfected system to a program made by a software company, that thinks it can be designers, better then the people doing the work?

Plus another very important point...if Revit is making the “selection” of equipment and it's wrong, who is going to pay for it if it's incorrect?

Because from ALL the Mech./Elec. demonstrations from Revit I've seen ALL had MISTAKES.

So...I wait next 20 years....till all the nitches are worked out, but I guess by then the Revit will do the hole thing and I'll be out of work, just wonder how much the software will cost then, being a cad tool and the selector they are gon'a have the engineering companies by the balls.

And after that, it will be the architects, in time the software will do the architectural automatic, just tell the program what you want with what you have and presto drawings to what you want

Just my take on it,
Sven

[WalkerARCHITECTS]

Sven the Drafting Dan Software Robots will never replace Architects, they will just put them all out of business!

[88]

Yes Sven + Walker. In the perfect future when all information are seamlessly integrated CAD companies will be the ultimate architects and engineers as they own the softwares.They can name the prices. They can discontinue any versions. If you don't upgrade your CAD .They can lock you out.
Big Brother is here.

[Jimbobidybone]

I swear I remember Autodesk saying they have now discontinued their support for 2006 and below, 88 I'd suggest at least trying to upgrade to AutoCAD 2007 / LT if all you do is 2D work, as in fairness since then AutoCAD hasn't made any great leaps and bounds! that upgrade will more likely save your staff probably 2-3 hours a day as they learn the new functions, I got a 30 day free trial of Revit and hated it, but to be fair i've had no formal training and can't stand the "Ribbon" that AutoDesk have adopted!

My opinion on the matter is that companies like Autodesk have to regularly put out upgrades to keep an anual turnover, they know that as long as a few companies get the upgrades they will gradually convince the companies they work with to do the same, it's a shame progression is lacking, like somebody else said, I think AutoCAD has peaked, it isn't ever going to get better to the point that justifies the cost of the upgrade.

The real issue is money! Autodesk have realised that each of their program has a feature that is the best in it's field if it didn't then that product would become obsolete and AutoDesk would lose one of it's product ranges! at the moment most companies have to buy 2-3 different programs to achieve what they want fom each different supplier, eg. Autodesk Adobe, These guys are pros at creating profit and slowing down the end user!

In reality get rid of Money (I'm a Big The Venus Project fan) and we would have the best possible most efficient tool and wouldn't have to worry about upgrading, exporting, or budgeting. There'd be one program to use for your field and it would have the best tools for the job and you'd get sent new patches as they're released, Autodesk could easily do this but choose not to as the monetary based society demands that they need to generate profit and by doing so they have to slow down efficiency!

[88]

Jimbobidybone, actually we have the latest auto cad suite but we are just getting very reluctant to more upgrades.We still have a few old machines/laptops with old auto cads that never got upgraded. We feel those simpler auto cads are better . All the new revits or the the likes are bulky and clunky with all the so call " advanced" features.( Unless you spend all your time specializing in fancy 3Ds). They slow everything down even for a small project.
Most of our consultants are not ready to upgrade to latest BIM too. So I don't know how true are those studies by the CAD industries claiming majority of the firms have upgraded to BIM.
We really hates all the newer interface/ ribbons /buttons as they really slow us down every times we upgrade . All those marketing people in CAD industries should be fired, I think they are the ones who really created all these "newer and better" nonsenses

[svenglezz-ASMEIL]

I agree with 88 100%

and to add...if was not for Windows XP I'd still be on version 14 for DOS
(man that was fast software for a 486).

Sven

[Jimbobidybone]

I do agree advancements have got much slower over the years and it seems like they are hardly changing anything now just pissing around with the interface, but I'm sure after you have got used to using the 2007 features compared with the 2000 features, you'd soon realise the advantages, hatch edit, multi trim, express tools, annotative text and dims etc. etc. they all save valuable seconds and all help enhance the quality of the drawings in a shorter timescale. Obviously thats the 2D stuff, go into the 3D realm and it easily surpasses the older versions.

I mean I'm all for upgrades just not in the way Autodesk and other software companies release them, it's all about maximizing profit rather than helping out the end user!

[WalkerARCHITECTS]

Simply stated the price from Autodesk is just way too much. Competition is needed to break up the monopoly! Good tools need good competition before they can become better tools. Lower prices are good for architects and so are better tools!

To empower the competition we need an DWG compatible software program with integrated 3d modeling like Revit but as part of a single package for less money than Autocad sells for by itself now; written with a faster cleaner program and adaptive flexibility to a variety of disciplines. Because the Autocad drafter knows Autocad, and we can hire plenty of them, we do not encourage something new, so the new competitor must have the same command names structure and so forth as AutoCad and be Autodesk user compatible but much much better & cheaper. Like Intellicad on steroids!

Piece of cake!

[Jimbobidybone]

Yeah piece of cake, not only do Autodesk basically own the monopoly on the drafting world they also own the intelectual right to the way the program works and how we use it, so any new competition has to basically come up with a fairly new way of doing it, which would give us all a completely new learning curve if we to buy it. Basically you're starting to aim at the likes of TurboCAD which in fairness isn't that good is very cheap and nobody can be arsed to learn it lol!

Until we get rid of the monetary system, and move towards a resource based economy, it's in company's own interest to release inferior products with the mindset to improving them to sell as "updates".

I think if we do ever get a Resource based Economy, we'll all be very shocked at the quality of software available, especially when we realise that we probably don't need to be at our post 90% of the time to do the same job as we were doing before. Reality is there are so many rules and regulations we have to stick to there are only a given number of options for each job, A piece of software could easily come up with these options and design them perfectly meeting all regs, in no time at all, all we'd have to do is pick the one we liked best and put our feet up and drink tea, or whatever else we'd like to do with our time ;p

[csintexas]

I don't really understand what you guys are talking about, there are many CAD programs available. Many of those export to DXF or DWG.